I personally prefer the linier style simply because they give you an actuall direction to go in.
Have I missed a point? please keep it going.
"Why does my life have to be so hard in every world?"
Nanami Jinii;El-hazard
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Art or science? Are games becoming too 3D
Author
Well it all depends on what sort of imagry your game is meant to have. If you wan massive imersion and individual character development, you would probably like the game game to be all 3d and cool. But then again, there are an awful lot of people out there who really like 2d or oldshool games. Personally I like the movie style approch to RPG''s on the consoles. Final Fantasy has always tried to communicate a certain story and theme. I do not think this would be easily done well in a game like ultima or everquest because you are playing yourself, not another character. Roleplaying doesnt nessisarily mean that you play yourself but moreover have the ability to act as another. Acting as cloud, as limited as it was given, was a lot more enjoyable than the character in a game like Dues EX. that doesnt detach from a game like Dues EX because it does what it was meant to very well. It really is dependant on what you are tryint to acheive.
I personally prefer the linier style simply because they give you an actuall direction to go in.
Have I missed a point? please keep it going.
"Why does my life have to be so hard in every world?"
Nanami Jinii;El-hazard
I personally prefer the linier style simply because they give you an actuall direction to go in.
Have I missed a point? please keep it going.
"Why does my life have to be so hard in every world?"
Nanami Jinii;El-hazard
Hi, im first time replier (if thats a word) and ive been reading bout ur topic on 3d games if they are any good or useful. I myself am a computer animator. I find that 3d technology is being OVERUSED to the point of saturation. Good old strat games like starcraft are still working perfectly on a 2d scale and with the new dark reign 2 with its new 3d capabilities, its a little too intense, and not useful to the overall game design. I believe that the true development in 3d gaming should be interfaces because currently having a 2d screen project a 3d simulation is well stupid, there should be a true 3d environment. for myself, i would luve to see a development into a 3d interface development because for ppl to actually be in a 3d environment of my animations offers them a well not to sound old or anything but "RAD" hehehh :-)
I think that the reason we liked playing computer games was because it was some kind of an escape from reality, it was like reading a book, but more intensive.
When we played those old 2d games (Maniac Mantion,Kyrindia,Monkey Island... and the list goes on and on...)
the main thing that kept us playing was the discover of a new strange world, which had only 2 dimentions, though , still very fascinating and magical... and above all, simple.
Then 3D games showed up. In the beginning, there were only some 3D simulations (I think TD3 was the first 3d car simulation) and the basic rule of simplicity stayed.
Now, 3D games have gone a long way since those days (late 80''s), and we got ourself games that can offer us just a dark mirror of the real world (or is it not the game that is dark...) , with 3D textures, million of 3d polygons running around our screen blended together with the alpha method.
Nothing is really simple and naive as it use to be, and the magic that games once had is gone, and all is left is a headache.
Now, let me make one point clear:
3D is good, but only for simulations.
Any attemp to make a legacy of 3D games will lose the "test of time".
When we played those old 2d games (Maniac Mantion,Kyrindia,Monkey Island... and the list goes on and on...)
the main thing that kept us playing was the discover of a new strange world, which had only 2 dimentions, though , still very fascinating and magical... and above all, simple.
Then 3D games showed up. In the beginning, there were only some 3D simulations (I think TD3 was the first 3d car simulation) and the basic rule of simplicity stayed.
Now, 3D games have gone a long way since those days (late 80''s), and we got ourself games that can offer us just a dark mirror of the real world (or is it not the game that is dark...) , with 3D textures, million of 3d polygons running around our screen blended together with the alpha method.
Nothing is really simple and naive as it use to be, and the magic that games once had is gone, and all is left is a headache.
Now, let me make one point clear:
3D is good, but only for simulations.
Any attemp to make a legacy of 3D games will lose the "test of time".
3D games are fun, but I think it looks like a technology war those days. Like who will have the highest frame rate with all the new options on the newest 3D card. And when I look at the price of a GeForce2 Gts...when a very good game could still be made to run on my pentium 200. It makes me a little nostalgic about the night we spent playing MegaMan on my nintendo...
Edited by - SirCyr on September 19, 2000 7:21:22 PM
Edited by - SirCyr on September 19, 2000 7:21:22 PM
Author
Oh my god someon actully agree''s with me for once instead of inding inconstancies in my speach and useing them against me.I agree all heartedly about the fact that games are becomeing more technology oriented and lame. The fact remains that a true game can still be good on the snes. I play those old megeman games still and i think that they are some of the best games ever because they always did what a game should, they were fun.
Oh well, 3d is here top stay but hey.
"Why does my life have to be so hard in every world?"
Nanami Jinii;El-hazard
Oh well, 3d is here top stay but hey.
"Why does my life have to be so hard in every world?"
Nanami Jinii;El-hazard
I see a lot of this thread is degenerating into "Was FF7 good/bad, pick your side." But I''ll try to answer what the original post brought. Is 3D good for games?
Well, was sculpture good for art? I think you''d be hard pressed to argue that there was no reason to do a Sistine Chapel if there was already a David ( sorry, I really don''t know which came first, but you get my drift ).
Arguing over what form a game takes is futile. If the gameplay dictates 3D movement, then it should be done in 3D. If certain effect can be better accomplished in 3D, do it in 3D. If you want an 2D artistic style, and the gameplay doesn''t require 3D, do it in 2D. 3D just has some advantages that you don''t have to draw every frame that''s used. One model, different positions. Now all the sudden you want the barbarian to hold the axe in the other hand, it''s not a big deal. With 2D you''ve just doubled all the artwork you''ll have to do.
I think many of you are confusing story with gameplay. I have alot to say on that too, but in the interest of keeping on topic, I''ll end here.
Ut
Well, was sculpture good for art? I think you''d be hard pressed to argue that there was no reason to do a Sistine Chapel if there was already a David ( sorry, I really don''t know which came first, but you get my drift ).
Arguing over what form a game takes is futile. If the gameplay dictates 3D movement, then it should be done in 3D. If certain effect can be better accomplished in 3D, do it in 3D. If you want an 2D artistic style, and the gameplay doesn''t require 3D, do it in 2D. 3D just has some advantages that you don''t have to draw every frame that''s used. One model, different positions. Now all the sudden you want the barbarian to hold the axe in the other hand, it''s not a big deal. With 2D you''ve just doubled all the artwork you''ll have to do.
I think many of you are confusing story with gameplay. I have alot to say on that too, but in the interest of keeping on topic, I''ll end here.
Ut
Author
I agree with some of that as well. the point was not to decide if ff7 was good or not. it is possible the best game ever but im using more as a model. I guess that it would be neat to combine the technologies to the point where the difference is difficult to see. I guess the only way to do that is with very ellaborate texture mapping but what is it that prevents the rate of polygon refresh? I was always under the impression that the textures took up the memory.
as nice as it is to say that we need to make up for the low poly count with good textures, i think both are needed. Damn, im contradicting myself here and thats bound to present ammo for madkeith. i dont think im liked by the moderators.
In anyevent, I am going to change the topic slightly. What makes 3d effects so great if all they are is a very cleaver way of mounting images in the 3d world? And keep in mind, I may be completely off base here. I know that stuff like fog is a little more elaborate but what about smoke or lensflares?
"Why does my life have to be so hard in every world?"
Nanami Jinii;El-hazard
as nice as it is to say that we need to make up for the low poly count with good textures, i think both are needed. Damn, im contradicting myself here and thats bound to present ammo for madkeith. i dont think im liked by the moderators.
In anyevent, I am going to change the topic slightly. What makes 3d effects so great if all they are is a very cleaver way of mounting images in the 3d world? And keep in mind, I may be completely off base here. I know that stuff like fog is a little more elaborate but what about smoke or lensflares?
"Why does my life have to be so hard in every world?"
Nanami Jinii;El-hazard
Im going to have to agree with Fantasy edge on this. what truely does kewl 3D effects achieve ? well id have to say simulation games wise, it makes it more realistic. This realism just creates more excitement. In the example of Grand Prix 3, the real smoke effects from cars, the reflective surface of a wet surface, the spray of water behind a car as it goes through a puddle, it makes it all the more interesting. But the point in fact here is that the actual race car drivers feel this and well obviously we all cant go out buy a 300 million dollar formula 1 race car team just to see what its like to race. Sooo well mymain rant is that the evolution of 3d games has been overused and used to the point of taht EVerything has to be now 3d. i mean look at larry suit lary ppl !!! hehhe it was funny, it was fun and it was amazing 2d, and not for hte reasons you think :-) heheheh. anywayz games like starcraft i mean those are eternal the combination of good 2D graphics with strong gameplay. Now we have games like 10six which is 3d based strategy which the gameplay is less than appealling, but the funny thing is that some of the theory is pretty good for multiplayer action. But overall the use of 3d wasnt needed and i foudn it to be detremental to the entire game. I say we stick 3d only to simulation games, (counter terrorism games, realistic military warefare, driving, flying and whatever else i forgot). This is where the 3d development is necessary. not in exploration games, diablo 1+2 are both good examples of adventure games which use 2d and should stay taht way. 3d effects isnt everything, it just has to fit properly to the game. Anywayz, i found that FF7 was okay but hte 3d use didnt makeme smile much either, still luve the old style ff3+4 games :-)
David came first. Raphael was supposed to paint the sistine chapel cuz he was the painter. however, the benefactors wanted michelangelo to paint it, and he said something on the lines of," what the hell? i''m a sculptor, dammit, not a painter!"
a2k
a2k
and to answer your question about effects, Fantasy Edge:
you''re an artist. you should know that whatever looks good, people will like.
the funny thing is, is that when i''m developing my game, i''m testing physics engines, with basic blocks, and grids. and it''s only when i get the FANCY GRAPHICS in do my friends and family say, "WOW! That''s really good!" it''s just incredible. i mean, the real meat of the game is in how it plays, not how it looks, right? and the general audience will still be sucked into FIRST IMPRESSIONS brought about by graphics. it''s only after they''ve played it will they decide that it not only looks good, but PLAYS well too.
also, for the texturing thing, yes, textures DO take up a lot of memory. however, that''s the whole point. the thing with 3d graphics is that once the textures are in memory, you don''t have to worry about texture speeds anymore. however, the VERTICES will always be manipulated by the PROCESSOR which is what actually does the real time calculation and hence, will effect the FRAME RATE. usually, people have enough ram or vram for textures, but low poly counts takes more of a precedence than minimizing texture use because it''s so processor intensive. i hope that clarifies a little more the understanding of overusing textures to compensate for low polys.
a2k
you''re an artist. you should know that whatever looks good, people will like.
the funny thing is, is that when i''m developing my game, i''m testing physics engines, with basic blocks, and grids. and it''s only when i get the FANCY GRAPHICS in do my friends and family say, "WOW! That''s really good!" it''s just incredible. i mean, the real meat of the game is in how it plays, not how it looks, right? and the general audience will still be sucked into FIRST IMPRESSIONS brought about by graphics. it''s only after they''ve played it will they decide that it not only looks good, but PLAYS well too.
also, for the texturing thing, yes, textures DO take up a lot of memory. however, that''s the whole point. the thing with 3d graphics is that once the textures are in memory, you don''t have to worry about texture speeds anymore. however, the VERTICES will always be manipulated by the PROCESSOR which is what actually does the real time calculation and hence, will effect the FRAME RATE. usually, people have enough ram or vram for textures, but low poly counts takes more of a precedence than minimizing texture use because it''s so processor intensive. i hope that clarifies a little more the understanding of overusing textures to compensate for low polys.
a2k
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