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An open letter to 'Graelig'.

Started by
12 comments, last by Brain 8 years, 11 months ago

Before I start:

We're trying something a bit different here. In the past we have always considered moderation decisions to be a private rather than public matter and handled everything in house with no publicly available explanation. Unfortunately because of the number of our efforts to give people multiple chances they often end up spouting a lot of complaints about the site before being removed, and then often go on to repeat those complaints in other online communities, and due to the lack of public information some of these complaints may be believed by outsiders even though they're not really accurate.

This topic is to be kept strictly on point, and at the bottom of the post I'll add some guidelines for what is and isn't acceptable as a response; please read the topic (and especially those guidelines) in full before responding, as off-topic replies may be removed without further notice. We would like to allow the community a fair chance to comment, but if we have to do too much clean-up the topic will be closed.

Remember that in some cases posts may have been hidden from public view, and that behaviour via private message and any other channels of communication are also taken into account, so just looking through a member's posting history may not show you everything that moderation decisions have been based upon.

An open letter to 'Graelig':

Unfortunately this open letter is to explain the reasons we are permanently banning you from the site; you've been quite vocal about the fact that you consider our community and particularly some of our moderation decisions to be unfair, and so we're trying something different by laying it all out publicly for everyone to see.

Since early June this year you have been issued with five separate official warnings via our system, and in addition have also been spoken to informally a number of times about your behaviour. The official warnings issued cite insulting/abusive/loaded language, offensive behaviour, and ignoring moderator instruction.

You have stated on a couple of occasions that you have not insulted other members, and whilst it is true that your wording usually specifically avoids insulting any particular individual your phrasing is often broadly insulting or dismissive of all other members as a whole. To provide one recent specific example, in your topic "your thoughts on the value of profilers and debuggers" you present your own strongly worded view-point and then finish off the post by asking "anyone else feel the same? Or is it only pod people left these days?" The implication that either people agree with your point of view or are group-thinking "pod people" is broadly insulting to those that disagree and is not a productive start to an adult conversation. Your posts are littered with similar examples where you dismiss dissenting opinions as "stupid" or "idiotic".

You have stated that we have punished you for posting unpopular (but supposedly completely truthful) opinions; that is not the case, but rather that you have been warned for the insulting and offensive way in which you word many of these posts. Dissenting opinions are welcome here as long as they are properly presented, and furthermore your repeated suggestions that your posts are to be taken as 100% accurate again does not invite productive conversation or allow for the fact that you are sometimes wrong. It's ok to be wrong occasionally, and you have been demonstrably so in at least a couple of cases.

You have claimed that we are unfairly punishing you whilst allowing others to bully you with impunity, but in order to allow you a fair chance we have removed inflammatory replies from other users in multiple topics (including for example this one), and issued warnings to a number of those users where appropriate. We (the moderators) are not simply stalking your posts looking for any slip-up to punish, but are responding to reports from offended or concerned community members, many of whom have called for you to be removed earlier. Looking through the first few pages of our reporting system I see no less than 25 reports concerning your posts, made by at least 10 different community members, and I can recall numerous reports before those.

On multiple occasions you have brought up off-topic disagreements from previous discussions, as if trying to play martyr rather than actually addressing the posts you are replying to on their merits, and in many cases we have removed these posts so as to avoid having to close otherwise productive discussions and to give you an additional chance to participate constructively.

From our perspective, we have been bending over backwards to give you a fair chance:

  • You have been issued with multiple warnings, both formal and informal.
  • You have been suspended from the site three times, with the hope that your behaviour would improve.
  • You have been reported over and over again by many other members calling for you to be banned but have been allowed to stay in the name of a "fair chance".
  • We have removed posts and warned other members for harassing you, and removed some of your own off-topic posts that would otherwise likely have resulted in an earlier ban.
  • One of our moderators even self-censored by removing an unseen reply in which they snapped at you unfairly.
  • Our community has down-voted you to an abysmal -825 reputation. No doubt some of this is people "jumping on the bandwagon", but you don't get a score that low without genuinely and seriously rubbing a lot of people the wrong way.

Unfortunately, enough is enough -- our moderators are getting weary from giving you an additional chances, and numerous community members who have been long term valuable contributors to the site are growing sick of reporting and responding to your content -- it is obvious your behaviour is not going to change and that you will continue to be disruptive here, so it's time for you to go.

Responding to this post:

Any responses to this post are to be kept strictly on topic, and the subject of this post is the behaviour of the member Graelig and responses from our moderators. For any other subjects (comments of the behaviour of other members, moderation in general, or feedback on the posting of this open letter, etc.) please start a new topic in this forum. If you think there is a systemic problem with moderation please start a new topic and provide specific examples, not just an unsubstantiated complaint like several that have been made off-hand by Graelig.

While you're welcome to comment, this is not a place for "dumping on" Graelig. We still expect the normal site rules to be followed, and insults, bullying, etc. will not be tolerated.

- Jason Astle-Adams

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Thank you for making this decision in public. While I do in general believe that moderation should be done behind the scenes, it does the community good to be reminded that there is a process, and that it is a process that is gone through by real people.

Silencing people is never easy, and I know that it's a decision that leads to thoughts such as "what are we losing by doing this?" However, in this case I do believe the correct choice was made. The site is a community, and like with all communities, if members do not attempt to fit in or behave in a manner that is expected of them by the rest of the community it can eventually cause great harm.

Graelig: I hope you can learn from this. It is a shame it has come to this, as you have made some good points in your posts, and obviously do have experience. If you can learn how to communicate with and get along with others, you could be a very valuable member of a community like this one. Good luck to you.

One additional note: I have a very busy weekend planned with my family and may be slow to respond to anything specifically directed to me.

- Jason Astle-Adams

I am actually surprised by this. His reply to What game engine should I use? was actually helpful and on point. I was holding out hope.

I am actually surprised by this. His reply to What game engine should I use? was actually helpful and on point. I was holding out hope.

We were hoping for a change too after all the effort to give a fair chance, but unfortunately the small number of constructive posts made does not counter-act continued bad anti-social behaviour elsewhere, and this final decision was made in response to yet another reported post and taking the entire history in to account.

You'll actually find a number of quite helpful posts scattered throughout Graelig's account history, and more recently the ratio of good to bad was certainly improving, but unfortunately at this point it's just too little too late.

- Jason Astle-Adams

Totally understood. I would have banned him long ago, but I don't have access to all of the behind the scenes info.

You'll actually find a number of quite helpful posts scattered throughout Graelig's account history...


Actually, no I wont. I can no longer view his profile.
if you do not mind me asking, what was the post that tipped you over the edge to make this call?
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As for what triggered it, there was another series of personal attacks, including broad accusations of racism, sexism, and Nazism. That was after many discussions, warnings, and notices to reform his behavior.

There have been many individuals over the years whose responses are immature and crude, yet still demonstrate a desire to learn and grow.

People are not born with social grace, and some children grow up without ever seeing civility in their home. Generally we attempt to teach some civility rather than immediately reach for the ban hammer. Banning a user who is interested in creating games is a tragedy for everyone; we may be turning them away when the person may have become a passionate, creative, champion who would have innovated within the industry.

We generally work with the individuals and to help them develop what they need to become useful community members. Usually the combination of time's natural maturing effects coupled with guidance and social feedback are enough. Most of us really try to consider these barriers. Some people have a barrier of never experiencing civility in their lives. Some are just immature and need to grow up, others pretty clearly suffer from mental issues, and we try to work with them so they can create something that they are passionate about.

Sometimes, however, attempting to teach social skills or work with the technically unskilled isn't enough.

In Graelig's case, during our PM's when I quoted blocks of the offensive text he wrote that he didn't think those lines were offensive. In messages we discussed a series of his statements that he had made in the forums, like "I know you made a big assumption, and didn't read what I said", which is a statement I can understand when feeling frustrated; "I know more about it than anyone posting in here, obviously", which is something he recanted; "I expect to see someone back up whatever claims they make, or else shut up. That is the only way to have a reasonable discussion", which was firmly shot down; and finally, "I'd ignore you, because you didn't even read what I said, let alone understand it. And you are a rude idiot", that he wrote he didn't see as offensive, just direct. In one PM he wrote that he didn't see anything wrong with that type of statements, that he is brutally direct (even when wrong) and those represent the way he talks in real life.

Sadly, he may have been honest about that. It is entirely possible he does communicate like that regularly. If so, I pity him and the difficulty he will have building his career and providing for himself and his family.

After those messages, he told me he would try to be more careful about that type of statement, but also that he wasn't willing to make big changes. When told the consequences could include being banned, he wrote it was "No big deal, at least as far as I am concerned".

Graelig's case -- and most others that go on for a while -- involve many attempts at correcting the behavior. The corrections are usually done in private, and frequently the individuals improve their behavior quickly. Sometimes they don't. We try, we give lots of chances. Usually the behavior goes on for a month or two. We understand that people are here to learn and grow, and that can include growth of social skills. We understand that many community members are very young, that some don't speak English well, that some have other difficulties. We try to help as best we can. Sometimes, despite our efforts, the person is unwilling or unable to participate in the public forum.

I figure as long as they are making an effort and trying to improve, and they want to participate, they can do so. Unfortunately it has become clear Graelig did not want to work for his own improvement. Hopefully in a few years he will mature. If he is still passionate about creating games and can participate in a mature way, then that future, more reformed, more mature individual will be welcome to participate.

if you do not mind me asking, what was the post that tipped you over the edge to make this call?

I doubt the "straw that broken the camel's back" was in any way extreme or unusual. It probably was "yet another" Graelig post, showing contempt for the aggregate community opinion and a lack of willingness to change behaviour.

Note that I'm speaking as a spectator here, in all cases any moderation had already happened by the time I saw anything. I believe in relatively light touch moderation as most of us are adults - though obviously we have younger members and we want to foster a positive and inclusive atmosphere here. However, 5 separate warnings in a month, combined with a spectacular rating drop, it was fairly clear to me that this member wouldn't be turning their behaviour around, I think I'd have reached for the ban hammer sooner - had any reports reached me first. I'm actually surprised he lasted as long as he did...

Something that might give you an idea, on The Nexus forums (that also uses IPBoard) they have a subforum where moderators can post. Each time they ban someone (temporarily or permanently), they create a new thread detailing particular user, reasons to ban him, etc. Discussion happens there about the decision.

I mean, its not something it happens regularly but it would be nice to have such public record and it would only involve a new subforum that only admins/mods can post on.

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