Unless you have unique rewards for certain long term tasks (like unlocking new tech tree branches

there is some of that. actions have prerequisites in the form of minimum experience points required in specific skills. so as skills increase, new actions are "unlocked". technically, all actions are always unlocked, but until you have the minimum skills, your chances of success are very low. so before you can even gather nuts, you need to learn plantlore to "unlock" the gather nuts action. this models you learning what nuts are and are not edible, so you can then proceed to harvest the good stuff.

then yes I think that "appropriately rewarded" (plus the survival of your tribespeople) would already take care of things and you don't need rewards for more important things.

i tend to agree, but it still doesn't model "this is important to me". i'm not sure if such a game play feature would make sense and be cool or not. perhaps i'll have to try it to find out.

You just have to make sure the system is verbose enough so the player can tell what they can do and how to do it.

this is a potential concern - a potential issue - but not an issue so far. you find out what you can do by selecting stuff (objects, terrain, the sky, etc). when you select an action, it tells you what you need if you're missing something (skills, tools, or parts). but you won't know something is possible until you select the appropriate object. so for example, you wouldn't know you can build a raft until you find the ocean and select the shoreline, and see "build raft" on the "shoreline actions menu".

i figure the docs will have to cover what to select to trigger specific actions, although its pretty obvious - you select something to get appropriate actions. like i said, it hasn't been an issue so far - even in playtest focus groups. so it may be a non-issue. but i don't want it to be like skyrim where you have to consult an online wiki to figure out how to do stuff. the value of a game used to be measured by the weight of the printed docs. by that measure (IE docs included with the game, printed or otherwise) today's games are a total joke.

Talking about difficult missions, the reward can just be a badge showing what they have completed.

"achievements" are planned, but this is something a bit different. the game models mood, like the sims. so it makes sense that when the player does something important to them, their mood should increase. and not just the mood boost from eating a twinkie type thing either. all that junks covered already. "new armor for lydia" is more the concept (to put it in skyrim terms). IE a semi-major achievement, with its own inherent benefits, but which also ought to make the character happier (if skyrim modeled mood, that is). "sweet, got you that new armor, girl! NOW we can go kick some butt!".

That way players can show off their skills and they could check each other out, knowing what the other is worth.

yes, i think some sort of online community will be called for, even if just for bragging purposes. too bad russian websites keep hacking my message board <g>.

(this is assuming there will be some player-skill involved)

this is a totally "live by your wits" game, so its _ALL_ skill ! <g>.

one of the interesting things is the way you need to account for fatigue during combat. simply sprinting and constantly attacking will often leave you "too pooped to pop" so to speak. so quick reflexes take second place to good strategy and tactics - when to sprint, when to attack, when to save your energy. OTOH, there's no hand holding when it come to things like missile combat, so you'd better be a crack shot in real life if you want to get anywhere - "windage and elevation, windage and elevation" - as the saying goes. and both FPS ad RPG elements come into play for combat. you must first actually hit the target FPS style to get a chance at an attack. the attack is then resolved RPG style, with chance to hit, variable damage, etc.

so before you can even gather nuts, you need to learn plantlore to "unlock" the gather nuts action. this models you learning what nuts are and are not edible, so you can then proceed to harvest the good stuff.

Hmm, that seems like it might be more interesting the other way around - you can gather nuts without the plantlore, but you either can't eat them or have a 50% chance of poisoning yourself until you test each type of nut and by testing learn the lore of which are edible and which are useful for making dye or something and which are junk or usable to make poison for arrows or whatever.

the value of a game used to be measured by the weight of the printed docs. by that measure (IE docs included with the game, printed or otherwise) today's games are a total joke.

I still have fond memories of one of the SimCity manuals that was the size of a graphic novel. I hope they won an award for that thing, it deserved it - they licensed poems and art to put in it and everything. Though as a designer, I think games should not need any external documentation aside from credits and bonus items like concept art and interviews.

The art of being a 'caveman' (or cavewoman) is being versatile to handle what comes your way (the big deal about the later agriculture/animal husbandry was the predictablity it added - knowing/discovering territory and its resources is another method)

quite true.

there is an excellent documentary that points this out. its called ICE WORLD. its about how ice drives climate change, and how climate change drove our technical evolution. in it they point out the fact that homo sapiens are the most versatile of all the worlds critters - because we're generalists.

out of all the stuff i've seen about cavemen since 2000, when i started on the original version, there's two videos that are the absolute best. both are docu-dramas: a hybrid of documentary and movie all rolled into one. informative, realistic, and entertaining as well. the only unrealistic thing is in ice world they say we didn't really hunt mammoth, yet they've dug up wolley mammoth in siberia with 14 spear points still embedded in the carcass.

#1: solutreans

#2 ice world:

but as you say, any open ended system would have to be "on your honor" to avoid cheating / "monty haul" gameplay.

All-in-all, just giving the player access to notepad in-game will give him the complete control over his personal goals that you want him to have.

but as you say, any open ended system would have to be "on your honor" to avoid cheating / "monty haul" gameplay.

All-in-all, just giving the player access to notepad in-game will give him the complete control over his personal goals that you want him to have.

Hmmm. This led me to think about meeting that halfway - having somekind of wizard mechanism where the player fills in options (which CAN be done cleverly .. potentially) to flexibly generate a plethora of 'achievements

ex-

I am *name_here* the *beasty_type_here* killer -- and I will upon killing (and possibly dragging back to my cave) quantity= [ 20 / (*beasty_type_here*.size / me.size) ] *beasty_type_here* carcasses - THEN have the me.title of "*name_here* the *beasty_type_here* Killer", forever more.

Hmm, that seems like it might be more interesting the other way around - you can gather nuts without the plantlore, but you either can't eat them or have a 50% chance of poisoning yourself until you test each type of nut and by testing learn the lore of which are edible and which are useful for making dye or something and which are junk or usable to make poison for arrows or whatever.

the game doesn't really handle plant type crafting ingredients that way. its not like skyrim where there are 100 different types of plants implemented as 3d models in the world that you can harvest, with various unknown properties. instead, they are broken down by usage: nuts, poison plants, about half a dozen types of spirit plants, spices, wild grains, reeds, sacrificial herbs, medicinal herbs, etc. different types can be found in different environments. no plantlore means you can look for nuts, but will find practically none which are edible. no herblore means you can search for medicinal herbs, but have almost no chance of finding any. i was considering making plants individual models like in skyrim, but then you'd have to track whats been harvested, and the game world is 2500 miles across, vs just 4 miles across for skyrim. not that stuff like that can't be done, but its more and more that has to be paged off the hard drive. eventually you end up with one of those games where the hard drive light pretty much just stays on, it churning through content so fast. for now, harvesting plants simply reduces the resources in a map square, like all other resource gathering actions do - including hunting and fishing.

I still have fond memories of one of the SimCity manuals that was the size of a graphic novel. I hope they won an award for that thing, it deserved it - they licensed poems and art to put in it and everything. Though as a designer, I think games should not need any external documentation aside from credits and bonus items like concept art and interviews.

must have been SIMCity v1.0. i got VLSI chip design playing that one, with a population over 1 million. might have been SIMCity 2.0 though.... SIMCity 1.0 kicked off a whole rage of naming games SIMthis and SIMthat. That's how my first hit got the name SIMTrek.

i too believe that the game should be designed to require as little documentation as possible, and that all documentation should be built-in to the game. but i also believe the docs should include all info, such as the rules for movement rate based on race in skyrim, and not just the basics such as input controls and UI description. often time i have to consult an online wiki for info on skyrim or total war that really should be included with the game - at least as a PDF or text file or something.

complete docs for caveman would be quite a chore, with half a dozen core stats, about a dozen variable stats, 40+ skills, over 100 types of actions (over 1000 actions total), 300+ object types, 25 terrain types, and 50 monster types - and everything affecting everything - documenting all the rules would be almost like writing the code again - which currently tips the scales at about 112,000 lines of game specific c++ code, not including the graphics and audio libraries (which togther are perhaps 9000 lines by comparison).

the tutorial teaches you the controls and UI and basic gameplay mechanics. the character creation screen describes the basic effects of core stats (STR, DEX, INT, etc). the game tells you what you need to do an action, if you don't have everything you need (skills/parts/tools). the game will have databases you can browse with info on stats, skills, actions, objects, and monsters. there will also be a built-in help file. hopefully that will be sufficient, without me having to get into the rules for "how long it takes to heal one point of damage and the chance of success", or whatever.

All-in-all, just giving the player access to notepad in-game will give him the complete control over his personal goals that you want him to have.

but no special reward....

I am *name_here* the *beasty_type_here* killer -- and I will upon killing (and possibly dragging back to my cave) quantity= [ 20 / (*beasty_type_here*.size / me.size) ] *beasty_type_here* carcasses - THEN have the me.title of "*name_here* the *beasty_type_here* Killer", forever more.

yes, what you describe is along the lines of what i was thinking - but with mood boost instead of titles as rewards.

player selects "add new goal" somehow.

a "add new goal" wizard pops up.

player selects goal type:

kill critter - select critter type - enter number to kill

get object - select object type - enter number to get

get skill - select skill - enter exp to get

etc.

the wizard assigns some reward (in mood points) based on the difficulty of the goal, and adds it to the list of active player goals.

when a player goal is met, the game automatically rewards the mood points, and deactivates the goal.

social status might be another possible reward. for example, just this morning, i got my first legit saber tooth kill EVER!

but that might come under the heading of "great achievements" - super quests that are always active - kill the fabled great white buffalo - that kind of thing. yet another kind of "quest" in the game, besides quest gens, hard coded quest editor quests, and player goals.

and that should yield a special type of trinket: saber tooth - a new object in the game. high trade value, high status value.

hmm...

status...

that's actually a whole new dimension of gameplay.

status in the band is pretty well defined. all band members are equals, as they are all player controlled. followers are of lower status, as they take orders from a band member - same idea for pets. however, the player's original band member tends to be considered the "boss" of the band by most players. but since any band member can recruit new band members, its possible to get band members recruited by different people, who don't really even know each other (relations = 0).

modeling relations between band members probably could use some help - as could follower and pet relations. these kinds of ideas really tempt me to start coding synthetic actors. i'd love to add an option to domesticate a megalania (18" long Minotaur lizard) that acts like a little puppy dog - a little puppy dog you feed entire cows to for breakfast! <g>.

between bands / groups...

there would have to be status indicators, such as the necklaces in the videos, or the great white spear from the movie 10,000 BC. but even then a meeting between two groups would probably come down to who had more spears at their back when it came to status - either in the form of friends right there, or others that could be called upon in time of need. IE if your band encounters a single caveman of high status, you might want to treat them well as they might be able to call many bands to their aid. or many bands may come looking for you if you harm them. and then there's the whole sparse population issue. the simulation is so big, i haven't had a chance to really experience it all. i've unit tested each feature and integration tested features that interact with each other as i've gone along, but i've been putting off long term play testing until most of the basic features were in there. the original concept for the game back in 2000 or so was "make a stone knife and take on a saber tooth". and it was only today, 15 years and 3 versions later, that i finally got my first real sabertooth kill EVER! so i'm really not sure what the impact of a sparse population will be until i try it and find out.

but no special reward....

Rewards are used to motivate players to accomplish (specific) goals .....