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Hobbyest projects > Amateur projects? Elitism in the making....

Eric Chou · 2016-06-16T14:54:00

Why was this changed under the Classifieds section? It sounds so judgemental and elitist. Where "Hobby" indicates a lifestyle meaning, you do it when you can, on the side, in addition to your day job & school, "Amateur" suggests they are of less serious and of lower quality and effort. Who, and why was this change made? Sure, Adding a careers section was nice, for the real pros, but renaming the Hobbyist section to what it is now, sounds potentially insulting. Sure there are people who are new, and have been dabbling in it for a few months, but this system labels them under the same people like me who have been doing this for 5+ years, and that just doesn't feel right.(under the new label) "Hobbyist was a term that was general enough to be inclusive from indie to modding, this term now sounds like it's just a catch all for those who aren't yet "full time" in the industry. I can't be the only one who finds the label a bit insulting. maybe a better way to filter it would be Hobby 2D VS. Hobby 3D? It makes passion projects sound like passing fancies, and Rev share models as sub par. (suggesting no "pro level" quality people need even bother in the Amateur section at all. Having such a stratified label somewhat disrespects those who aren't full timer contractors making money, it threatens to loose sight of the fact that most people weren't born into the careers section, they had to start small, and show what they had with their hobby to rise up in the ranks. It sounds like it's undermining passion to begin with. Sounds like a 40 year old who has no knowledge of the art to tell his wannabe gamedev son, "oh your just an Amateur, you'll never make this as a real career, your not good enough....." Isn't that the attitude/ perspective we're trying to fight against? Sure, we got to have some Quality Control, to weed out those who think game design is as simple as gaming, and I support critical analysis, and gate keeping methods, but this doesn't achieve that effect. It biases people, new and old to this site unnecessarily, and it consciously or subconsciously heralds in elitist perspectives and behaviors. That's like renaming the section in question "made by/ for fools and children who don't know what they're doing" And Careers to "Made for / by Adults who are serious business, who should be beyond reproach" I mean, come on yall?

GDNet Comments, Suggestions, and Ideas Community

Started by GeneralJist June 08, 2016 08:54 PM

16 comments, last by GeneralJist 8 years ago

Hodgman

52,718

June 09, 2016 08:50 AM

Professional - gets paid.
Amateur - no intention of getting paid.
Hobbyist - does it for fun, not work.

Note that all (sane) amateurs are hobbyists, but not all hobbyists are amateurs.

Plentey of people make and sell games in their spare time, which makes them professional hobbyists. There's even specific personal tax rules for income-generating hobbies!

So the right word depends on the purpose of the category:
• is it to separate for-profit and non-profit projects? Then Amateur is the word.
• is it for separating waged/salaried/milestone paying gigs from non(traditional)-paying part-time projects? Then Hobby is the right word.

The only people really affected by this distinction are the people who think they're running a gamedev business, but actually just have a very expensive hobby (e.g. almost every rev-share project on here).

Professional/Hobbyist lets them chill in the Hobbyist category.

Professional/Amateur pushes these people into the professional category, where they don't really fit next to actual businesses paying actual wages.

. 22 Racing Series .

khawk

3,752

June 09, 2016 02:22 PM

So the right word depends on the purpose of the category:
• is it to separate for-profit and non-profit projects? Then Amateur is the word.
• is it for separating waged/salaried/milestone paying gigs from non(traditional)-paying part-time projects? Then Hobby is the right word.

At this point in the thread things are getting over-analyzed and over-engineered, but the intent is to separate jobs that pay from jobs that don't pay regardless of time spent. Any developer looking for help on their project with no intent to pay for the help should use this part of the classifieds, regardless of whether they're full-time or part-time.

I think there is a bigger problem to address with the Classifieds area of the site than just this name though (a non-technical issue), so I'll be turning my attention there. For now this particular part will be named 'Hobby'.

Admin for GameDev.net.

frob

46,242

June 09, 2016 04:01 PM

When I ask google to define amateur, I get two definitions:

noun
1. a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid basis.
synonyms: nonprofessional, nonspecialist, layman, layperson; More
antonyms: professional

2. a person considered contemptibly inept at a particular activity.
"that bunch of stumbling amateurs"
synonyms: bungler, incompetent, bumbler
"what a bunch of amateurs"
antonyms: expert

Hobbyist only has one, a person engaged in a hobby, which is something done for one's leisure and pleasure.

I don't particularly care for "amateur" because of that second definition.

For my view there are hobby projects done for one's leisure and pleasure, and there are projects worked on as a business done for commerce and profession.

Hodgman

52,718

June 10, 2016 12:27 AM

Volunteer would have the same meaning as amateur without the negative connotations, I guess :)

P.S. have the listing prices also dramatically changed recently?

. 22 Racing Series .

MarkS_

3,509

June 10, 2016 08:57 AM

I don't particularly care for "amateur" because of that second definition.

There are many definitions for many words in the English language and not all of them are "nice". I think we need to get past this nonsense and realize that the administrators of this site are not in the habit of using derogatory word definitions to describe members. If there are two definitions for a word and one is derogatory, assume the other definition.

Norman Barrows

7,180

June 10, 2016 03:53 PM

if the difference is paid vs unpaid, you should call that.

today, it seems that in most people's minds amateur = mere dilettante = wannabe.

note that if you google dilettante, amateur is used in the definition!

Norm Barrows

Rockland Software Productions

"Building PC games since 1989"

rocklandsoftware.net

PLAY CAVEMAN NOW!

http://rocklandsoftware.net/beta.php

Alberth

10,216

June 16, 2016 02:38 PM

+1 to Norman, call the thing by its name, ie paid vs non-paid. Skill level or aim of producing the things being asked isn't that relevant, imho.

(I have, at times, considered hiring someone to make graphics for an open source game. Never actually happened yet, but likely I am not the only person considering that.)