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Do you need a degree on top of good experience?

Started by
104 comments, last by Hodgman 5 years, 8 months ago
1 hour ago, Fulcrum.013 said:

Really i never seen self-"educated" developers that understand such basic tools like surface coords or gradient search method, or just ever heart about such common-usage tools as concept of superposition or PID-regulation

And yet, despite your ignorance, a great a deal of people without university education do understand and use those concepts.  One prominent example from our field is John Carmack, who helped pioneer or popularize many commonly used techniques despite dropping out after just two semesters of university.  Earlier in the topic someone mentioned an author who regularly presents at SIGGRAPH with no formal education.  I don't single them out, but if I recall correctly at least one person who has responded to this topic is a very talented developer with extensive industry experience but no formal education.

Your limited personal experience is not objective truth. It does not apply universally.

I've worked with university trained programmers who are completely useless. I've worked with completely self-taught developers who are amazing.

A whole spectrum exists in between.

Please stop repeating yourself over and over - you're not helping the original poster, and no one is impressed by your multiple pages of grand standing.

You've stated your opinion. Now let it go find stop dragging the discussion off topic with circular discussion of the same point over and over. Everyone knows you think university education is the be all and end all, you don't need to keep repeating yourself.

- Jason Astle-Adams

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2 minutes ago, jbadams said:

I've worked with university trained programmers who are completely useless.

Of cource i has seen a guys with purchased university dipomas that know nothing. But i never seen a someone who able to understand and implement complexive tasks and not have a university degree.

 

13 minutes ago, jbadams said:

Your limited personal experience is not objective truth. It does not apply universally.

Objective truth is a common case, not a exceptions of common cases, that of cource possible. But in common case ever BA degree not enought basis to developt a complexive mathematically loaded software, not saying about a non-educated "developers".

 

4 minutes ago, jbadams said:

Please stop repeating yourself over and over - you're not helping the original poster, and no one is impressed by your multiple pages of grand standing.

I just try to argue to question starter why university education is so importent to have a strong development skills and mind.

#define if(a) if((a) && rand()%100)

2 minutes ago, Fulcrum.013 said:

I just try to argue to question starter why university education is so importent to have a strong development skills and mind.

Saying it once was enough, dragging out 5+ pages of repeating yourself isn't helping anyone.  Just stop.

- Jason Astle-Adams

25 minutes ago, jbadams said:

Saying it once was enough, dragging out 5+ pages of repeating yourself isn't helping anyone.  Just stop.

Saying it over and over again for 5 pages, not just once, but in many different threads, constantly derailing other people's discussions... Is borderline trolling. 

Please stop trolling our forum. 

I'll throw another 2 cents in.  I think the value of a degree varies greatly depending on where you live. I now live in Russia and my wife tells me that the paper is worth everything here, and for some jobs your actual skill means next to nothing.  This kind of stretches over to trade skills too.  What they call a "master" here may be OK, or may do complete crap work.  I've learned to do a few things here like welding and some other construction type work, because hiring someone is a crap shoot.  Even if I do hire them, I'll sometimes stand over their shoulder and make sure they are dong a decent job.

On the other hand I was born and grew up in silicon valley. I had a high school diploma and went to community college but was kind of unmotivated until I fell into programming.  I got hired by a major semiconductor company as a tech in 1983 with not even an AA degree. I guess I must have impressed them in the interview. I worked there for nearly 25+ years and for most of that I was working as an engineer. I was higher ranked than a lot of the PhDs for much of that time.

 We had no world wide web, when I started but what we did have was "computer literacy", a book store that stocked all the latest tech books. To this day I think books are better than the web. I went there nearly every week and I spent a good chunk of money on books over the years.  I think my main strength is not knowing so much, but rather being willing to dig in and solve problems, by doing a lot of reading, and sometimes sitting for hours with paper and pencil and figuring out new ways to do stuff.  At this point the only reason I feel I might want a degree is to show it to someone else in a job interview.

That being said I think having the paper can help get you in the door in many places.  When you apply for a job, most times people just expect you to have it.  That's not to say they will never hire you without it, but it's just one conversation you don't have to have about why you never got your degree.  Again to the OP, I would say if you have the time, money and inclination, it's worth it, but the bottom line is still motivation.

40 minutes ago, Fulcrum.013 said:

Of cource i has seen a guys with purchased university dipomas that know nothing. But i never seen a someone who able to understand and implement complexive tasks and not have a university degree.

I don't know about that. I think I can implement complex tasks quite well.  I wrote the final programming assignment for one of my friends university classes last year. So people couldn't copy each other's work he handed out different tasks to different students.  I had to write his in x64 ASM which I didn't even know when I started. He got a 5+ which means he not only got a perfect score but he didn't have to take the final exam.  He told me the professor had written the same program and said to him "How did you do it? You smoked my code!". So yes it's possible to do decent work without a degree.

...... My blog is pretty basic at the moment, but if you follow it maybe I can change your mind in the next few months.

8 hours ago, Fulcrum.013 said:

And related to simulations games/engins development (that usually a successfull gamedev companies here made) it required not less then for real-world FA and CAD/CAM software. Becouse gaming worlds usualy pretend to be a most complete (but less precesious) simulation of real-world, so use algos of anything that related to FA, CADs, scientific phisic processes simulations and so on, that required to be plugged into one team and work realtime on very weak hardware(in comparsion with real-word software equipment per simulated/controlled object).

This more sounds like your personal vision of how all games should be made, but i doubt it's a reality for the very most of them. For once there is a lot of specialization happening in games, leading to offloading special tasks to very few experts in a given field. And those results end up in middleware, engines and tools. Often affordable or even almost for free. 

So your view is really that of one of the few experts and maybe not represantative for the whole industry. Think of the army of artists necessary to make a game, and also the majority of code where a degree in rocket science would be just a waste.

For second i rarely see impressive simulations in games. E.g. the popular physics libs used everywhere can not even handle mass rations of 1:10 well. Game developers often work around such limitations instead to fix them. They fake and trick stuff, and they succeed with it. It has always been this way, and even with constant progress in better tech it will remain so. Games are primary the result of creativity, not science.

 

Personally i agree with your visions if i get you right. Many game programmers are addicted to the idea of simulating reality. But we should not forget that we talk about games here, which are primarily about entertainment and not science. So there MUST be a place for less educated people as well, even in coding positions. Ruling out their creativity would be fatal.

On the other hand, in times where everybody can make a FPS just by downloading UE, your opinion is more necessary to be said out loud than ever. Keep it coming, but consider there might be people with similar thoughts and skills without university background :)

 

9 hours ago, Fulcrum.013 said:

Math can not be outdated. And it is main tool of programmers.

No, and no it is not necessarily (depending on your field). 

Having been a programmer/analyst/consultant for more than 20 years there's probably only a handful of times I've ever needed to employ any above basic mathematical skills.  I have no maths qualifications apart from a fairly worthless GCSE (UK high school qualification).

It seems your real-world experience is somewhat limited and niche.  For sure, high level mathematical skills are required for certain domains (I would imagine graphics research is pretty tough without it), but having worked as a C# .NET developer a few years back for a company that develops finance calculators for the automotive industry (and hence being regulated by the FA) I can say for a fact that in the UK a degree/masters in the field of mathematics is not required.

I have worked with many highly qualified people who make absolutely crap programmers (and often had to optimise their code!).

You remind me of a guy I used to work with many years ago (developing a Dealer Management System for SAP, which later got bought out by SAP and became the SAP VMS module) who had a masters in pure mathematics.... he was a fairly average programmer who knew less about programming in that particular language than I did.  I remember one lunch time we decided to challenge each other to write a Sudoku solver.  Despite his background in maths he chose to opt for a brute force approach, whereas I opted for a smarter algorithm based on rules.  Both solutions worked I guess but considering his background I would have expected him to use it!

So you really need to drop the arrogance of insisting that a qualification in maths is essential to being a programmer or game dev.  It is not.  It can be helpful for sure, but not essential.  I do agree with you on one point though and that is as the market becomes flooded with candidates then a qualification can become the only deciding factor for an employer.  However, having said that and having been an employer and an interviewer in my time I can say that it takes more than qualifications alone to get you hired... personality goes a long way!

I also agree with the others... it seems you are trolling this forum.

7 hours ago, Gnollrunner said:

My blog is pretty basic at the moment, but if you follow it maybe I can change your mind in the next few months.

It really not a bad for amateur. But i guess you allready has catch up a underwater stone that you hope to solve in couple month. But really it not a stone it is aceberg. As you mentioned as you goal you need a as compact as possible world geometry representation. Obviuosly it requires to optimise geometric data density proportionally to relief surface curvature. But nother voxels no height map is not a tool that able to serve it purpose at all. Looks like you need something much robust like b-spline geodesic isolines.

1 hour ago, Greedy Goblin said:

So you really need to drop the arrogance of insisting that a qualification in maths is essential to being a programmer or game dev.

Degree in applicative math and  CS is must have option for any programmer ever in case it using only 4 ariphmetic operations for accounting calculations. Becouse any software development require a perfect knowledge of theory of graph that needed to eliminate unnesesary dependences, theory of sets to understand a theory of relative databases and so on. And for analitics it much highly applicable than for just a programmer, becouse architectural errors is hardest to fix.

4 hours ago, JoeJ said:

E.g. the popular physics libs used everywhere can not even handle mass rations of 1:10 well.

Popular phisic engines can not to calculate ever aproximate collision normal for complexive shaped objects, say more much adverticed of it ever not allow  to specify a shift of center of masses and inertion tensor. About what realistic simulation uses its engines you ever talk?

4 hours ago, JoeJ said:

On the other hand, in times where everybody can make a FPS just by downloading UE,

ANd who will draw a blueprint scripts? Graphical representation of code != no code. It just == other representation of same code. And of cource to implement AI UI effects and so on same background as usual required.

1 hour ago, Greedy Goblin said:

I can say for a fact that in the UK a degree/masters in the field of mathematics is not required.

Is you code has control a drives that require a realtime disaster-critical control or work on same hardware that do it, or has it been involved into disaster-critical personel interaction? Or it just has passively collect a reports from FA system by networking  and make a accounting?  First is regulated. But second is not eparhy of FA departament at all here, it part of factory information system so developed/mantained by IT departament that have much weakly regulations that for most companies come from company policy (that usually prefer a educated programers at first, and educaded engineers of other fields as second), not from government. I gues same wordwide.

1 hour ago, Greedy Goblin said:

I also agree with the others... it seems you are trolling this forum.

Just i very good seen by my own eyes backface of communism. It backface has come nott from KGB and so on. It  begun from "scientific proven" tesises of Grandfather Lenin that engineers and scientists is a "remands of burgeous pasts" and "every cook can drive the state".  And we know results exactly. Nowadays something like it become a very popular into IT industry.

#define if(a) if((a) && rand()%100)

8 minutes ago, Fulcrum.013 said:

Just i very good seen by my own eyes backface of communism. It backface has come nott from KGB and so on. It  begun from "scientific proven" tesises of Grandfather Lenin that engineers and scientists is a "remands of burgeous pasts" and "every cook can drive the state".  And we know results exactly. Nowadays something like it become a very popular into IT industry.

And there we have it. :) Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between? Just as not everyone in the economy needs to be a master engineer or scientist, perhaps not everyone in IT needs to be a master mathematician?

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